War is nothing new to America – but the way Pete Hegseth talks about it is. President Donald Trump’s defense secretary often describes US actions in Iran as blessed by God. Like being a saint.
He compared the recovery of an Air Force member downed in Iran on Easter Sunday to the resurrection of Christ. He quoted a Bible verse about God blessing war in a recent press conference on Iran. Famously, he has a tattoo that says “Deus vult,” which is Latin for “God willing,” and was a rallying cry for Christian armies during the Crusades.
Hegseth church rector, Reverend Doug Wilson, said Today, It’s Explained co-presenter Noel King that “I like the work he does, and I like the way he talks.” Wilson said that he can hear his teachings coming when Hegseth talks about war.
It has been a long road for Wilson to reach this level of influence. The evangelical pastor founded the Church of Christ in Moscow, Idaho, in the late 1970s. The church has since spread across the country under the umbrella of the Fellowship of Reformed Evangelical Churches.
Recently, it opened a branch in Washington, DC: A great place to serve the conservative faithful increase in temperature to Wilson’s ideas about Christian nationalism and Christian theocracy, which holds that the United States should be governed by Christians according to Christian principles.
Wilson told Vox that he’s been on the edge for decades. Now, he is invited to the halls of power. He recently led a prayer service at the Pentagon, has been on the Tucker Carlson and Ross Douthat podcasts, has spoken at Turning Point USA events and at the National Conservatism Conference. Not so fringe anymore.
In a major exchange, Wilson and Noel discussed what his ideal Christian theocracy would look like; his desire to ban abortion, same-sex marriage, repeal the 19th Amendment; and why he thinks Trump is laying the groundwork for his Christian nation.
The following is part of their conversation, edited for length and clarity. There’s a lot more in the full podcast, so take a listen Today, It’s Explained wherever you find podcasts, incl Apple Podcasts, Pandoraand Spotify.
Currently the seat of power in the United States is President Donald Trump. Do you like President Trump’s leadership?
Two thirds of the time, I really like it. A third of the time, I think: What is he doing?
A good comparison to Trump is: America has cancer and Trump is chemo. Trump is strong chemo and chemo is poison. Chemo is a system where it kills the cancer before it kills the patient.
I love the progress that Trump has made on cancer. And I know some of the damage done to healthy tissue by his management style, his leadership style. But politics is a possible art.
I hear you say: President Trump is bringing us closer to the Christian nation I want. He also acts in ways that contradict what Christ preaches in the Bible. And he’s often a bad role model, isn’t he? Do you have any doubts, being a pastor, about letting Trump go?
If I let him off the hook, then I would have reservations about it. But I really haven’t. The president needs Christ. But we live in a sophisticated world, because there are some of his policies that are closer to the biblical Christian position than other holy Christians who do not agree with his bad tweets and his behavior.
In the congregation I pastor, we don’t have any Trumpkin, wild-eyed followers where no matter what Trump does, it’s always good. When Trump misbehaves, everyone laughs. We planned a budget for that. That’s bad. And we know it’s bad and we say it’s bad. But we don’t have Trump derangement.
When he does good things that make us happy, we get excited. I don’t mind saying that there are many issues where Trump’s behavior has pleased me, and others that I completely disagree with. And I don’t think I’m setting a bad example for our people. When I say what I think, about both of those categories.
Pete Hegseth, secretary of defense, attends the Reformed Evangelical Church Communion. And that’s why I think people mention you in the same breath.
“In the world I live in, conservative, evangelical leaders are ready to oppose Trump when they think he’s wrong and ready to support him when they think he’s right.”
The secretary of defense has had opportunities – many recent opportunities – to speak publicly before the American people. Do you hear the teachings of your church when he speaks?
Let me spin it. I hear nothing from him that contradicts what we teach, and I believe that he is a solid Christian gentleman. I love what he does. I love the work he does, and I love the way he talks. I have not heard anything that contradicts what we can teach from the pulpit.
He has talked about the Iran war in religious terms. He also suggests that God is on America’s side. God is rooting for America in this war. I think the thing that people struggle with is the idea that God would be on board when you see civilian casualties like this Iranian school with children – (more than) 150 people were killed.
That happens, and then the defense secretary says: God is on our side. Can you help us understand why that is right for you?
The first thing I would say is that no answer should try to pretend that war isn’t terrible, right? In any war, terrible things will happen.
But if you look at a regime that has killed, 35 to 40,000 of their own people in the last month or so, if you look at a regime where a woman can be hanged for rape? We have many problems, many moral problems. We are not a moral paragon. But if you put this, the Western civilization that we have and the Sharia Islamic state that they have in Iran, I believe that it is not a moral situation at all.
The war has divided Christians. Pope Leo wrote“God does not bless any fight. Anyone who is a follower of Christ, the King of Peace, is never on the side of those who previously used the sword and today are throwing bombs.” What do you say about his statements?
I would say he needs to read his Old Testament more. Psalm 144:1 “Blessed be the Lord, my rock, Who teaches me my fingers in battle.” Pope Leo, before he became pope, was a regular critic of Trump’s left-wing Democratic Party.
Hmm.
And in the recent conflict that Trump and the pope had, it was just Trump dealing with a political opponent, so was the Pope. I don’t think the pope was acting as a religious leader who implements that scripture. I think he was just expressing his political beliefs.
“God does not bless any conflict. Anyone who is a follower of Christ, the King of Peace, is not on the side of those who once used the sword and today are throwing bombs.”
Does that strike you as just a political comment, just a criticism of President Trump?
Yes, absolutely. Because when you have people who are very selective in their anger…when you look at the kind of violence that the Iranian regime is doing against their own people – like 40,000 people dead – and they did it on purpose as opposed to accidentally blowing up a school, and the pope is silent on that kind of thing, and then he goes after Trump for waging this war. I don’t see the same weights and measures there. I don’t think Pope Leo is dishonest.
President Trump posted a meme depicting himself as Jesus Christ. He deleted it, but it struck many Christians, including many conservative Christians, as terrifying. What? how did you feel about that? And then when you had time to think it through, where did you come up with that?
My first reaction (was) – I wrote on Twitter, I said: Someone needs to know how to put this picture on black velvet so that it can be blasphemous. and tacky. The picture was blasphemous. The president’s explanation later was that he thought it was a doctor, not Jesus.
I find that a stretch, but I’m willing to accept it. If he took the picture down and said that posing as Jesus wasn’t what he intended, at least we got that. That was a very good thing. But I think they should do better when it comes to social media management. That was a blasphemous picture. And blasphemy is not good no matter who does it.
What is the punishment for blasphemy?
It would depend. It’s like first degree murder to manslaughter. So there are different levels. The worst punishment in the Old Testament for blasphemy was the death penalty.
Let me ask you one last question. There is a writer, Tim Alberta. He comes from an evangelical background. He tweeted recently in response to President Trump and the photo: “My conviction remains: God did not appoint Donald Trump to save the American church, or to revive the American church, or to redeem the American church. God put Donald Trump to test the American church. And the American church has failed.” What do you think God is trying to do with President Trump?
I agree with everything in that tweet down to the last line. I disagree with the last line. I think Trump is a test. This goes back to what I said earlier about chemo. I think the turbulent times we live in are a test. But in many ways, I have been very inspired by how many Christians have found work to take advantage of the opportunity brought by the chaos of our times.
I think Tim Alberta’s tweet seemed to indicate that we failed because all Christians got behind Donald Trump and, and they didn’t stand up and oppose him. But in the world I live in, conservative, evangelical leaders are ready to oppose Trump when they think he is wrong and ready to support him when they think he is right. And I wouldn’t call it a failure.
